東大と京大は全然違う。ハッタリはいけない。 0104実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 16:09:23ID:RGJdJ/wF>>102 I know what you mean. Unless they change the way they screen their students in those prestigious universities, studetns who are given their English classes mainly in English will have some disadvantages. Well, to tell the truth, I don't have a chance to have a look at the entrance exam paper of either Tokyo or Kyoto University. Are they very different? In what way? They are both one of the best universities in Japan. 0105実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 16:38:27ID:BgkDohUH 入試の英文和訳をやめろという意見はよく見るけど、 センターでもあるまいし、大学が高校の「授業のやり方」に合わせる必要はないんじゃないかな。 英語で授業を行うことの目的はいわゆるコミュニケーション能力の養成だろ? 「いかなる状況においても(授業外でも)決して英語を日本語に置き換えるべきではない」 ということまでは言えるはずもないし、そういうことは考えていないと思う。 建前的にでも、「大学入学後に真面目に勉強をするなら英語と日本語の相互変換も必要になる」 と言えるなら、入試で和訳をさせてもおかしくない。 0106実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 17:06:14ID:RGJdJ/wF 英語日本語の相互変換も自在にできるようになるのも大事でしょうが、 ただ、日本語訳を入れると「構文を理解している訳し方をしなくてはならない。 この訳だと減点になるかもしれない」とか、英語理解と関係がない(少ない) 部分で学生は訓練を受けなくてはならなくなる、そういうことが問題だと思う。 今具体例がすっと出てこないが、言っている意味分かってもらえるだろうか。 英語の文を英語のまま理解してゆく方が速く、たくさん読めるし、そういう 方向に持ってゆきたい。 0107実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 17:07:56ID:RGJdJ/wF>>106 入試に英文和訳をたくさん入れてしまうと というのが抜けてしまいました 0108実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 17:26:28ID:BgkDohUH>>106 言いたいことはわかるけど、実際に大学がどこまで細かく採点してるかってとこでしょうね。 質の差はともかく、英語で理解できたことは母語で表現できるのが普通だと思う。 必要な情報がもれなく理解できていることが訳で伝われば良いはず(本来は)。 構文を事細かに日本語訳で表現しなくてはいけないというのは 受験対策をする側が作り出した幻想であるようにも思えます。 本質的に力があれば、そういう細かいところでは負けないと思う。 実際そうでないのならすみません。 0109実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 18:19:40ID:RGJdJ/wF 授業が和訳中心になってしまうのは、和訳をテストに出しているという 側面があるからだと思う。和訳をすることでつく能力というのもあるかも しれない。でも、内容が分かっているのに「減点を食らうかもしれないから 模範訳を暗記しよう」とか、テストにおける和訳は、オレはあまり いい、とは思えないんだよ。それより、ある文の要約を考えさせたり それが難しいレベルだったら、要約をこちらで用意して、ところどころに 空所を作っておいて、そこに入る英単語を書かせたり、の方が英語を 日本語に置き換えないで、でも内容理解も確認できていい、と思う。 0110◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/03(土) 21:34:41ID:dshu4cJM ID:RGJdJ/wF 氏
あなたの考えていることと東大の入試はかなり近いと思います。 よく検討してみてください。 0111実習生さん2009/01/03(土) 23:15:52ID:RGJdJ/wF Oh. Gosh! I had a look. Aren’t they all very difficult? I almost feel sorry for the young people who take those tests. They have to have a very large vocabulary and great intelligence to read those passages. Yeah, that’s my impression, but as those who pass are going to be the ones who will lead the country, I guess they should be able to read those extremely difficult essays… Still I feel kind of sad because they really have to study so much that they have no time to relax or have fun to make their English level that high. I’m glad I didn’t have to do it. 0112◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/04(日) 01:45:59ID:USMNDUvZ>>111 新鮮な感動というか衝撃だったようですが、あなたの高校は進学する生徒は いないのですか。ちょっと、状況が理解しにくいのですが。 0113実習生さん2009/01/04(日) 01:56:16ID:ELGw/nBC なんだか英語力自慢している香具師だらけだな。
>>112 You don't seem to know anything about monkeys' world. Actually some teachers are very lazy including myself. Most of us don't want to solve the entrance exams of Tokyo uiversity unless we are forced to do it. Strange? I don't think so because that's the way it is. 0115◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/04(日) 11:34:16ID:USMNDUvZ>>114 何をおっしゃいますやら。 ペーパー0点でも高校入学できる偏差値30〜35マックス集団を教えてますが 何かw
There seems to have been several theories which have been in and out. At times, one method is popular and then another. It’s hardly possible to prove which method is the best (most efficient), because students are different, and so are teachers, class sizes, parents’ involvement, and what kinds of educational resources they can use. Teachers are not a specialist, (although they should have some basic knowledge about the history of language-learning pedagogy, hey, I know some difficult words!) so they don’t usually think about any particular method or theory when they teach. Teachers usually teach the way they were taught. Grammar-translation method is one of the most popular one, which is still mainly used in English classes today. Why do teachers stick to it? Because it’s the way they were taught and in a way it’s effective. As for me, I’m not altogether against grammar-translation but I think it should be reduced to be only one of the many methods which could be used, not the only one. 0119実習生さん2009/01/04(日) 17:19:46ID:vRdAjAre>>118 日本語にすると、俺はゲイで熟年好きでドMなので仕事帰りに毎日ゲイバーに通っている。 高校生にも興味があり、生徒の何人かを喰っていますってとこですね。わかります。 0120実習生さん2009/01/04(日) 21:44:56ID:PJuQmUSG アポストロフィーが全角なのがいただけない。 0121◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/05(月) 11:20:42ID:k/e4nXyO>>118 priority についてはどうでうすか。 上位項は条件や前提となります。それをすっ飛ばして次にはいけません。 なぜなら、答えが違ってくるからです。 0122実習生さん2009/01/05(月) 13:47:48ID:e7Wjne1x>>119 Aha, you are saying I am Su*ichi Sensei? Unfortunately I am not so famous as him. I am just nobody.
>>120 Yeah. I know. This is maybe because this thread is meant for writing in Japanese...
>>121 I wonder if I understand what you mean. Could you please make it more specific? I wanted to say that there is no remedy to cure all diseases. All we have are some medicines which could ease some of your discomforts... 0123◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/05(月) 14:50:06ID:k/e4nXyO>>122 絶対神のような方法論があり、全能なる教授者がいるような前提では考えて いません。むしろ、その逆だからこそ慎重に考えないとならないということです。
例外特殊を一般化して考えるのは馬鹿のすることです。 0124実習生さん2009/01/05(月) 22:28:14ID:DgJsncA+ 数学はむしろ英語でやった方がやりやすいけどな。 0125実習生さん2009/01/05(月) 22:36:20ID:e7Wjne1x Individual teachers cannot change the educational policy which will be practiced nation-wide. What little they can do is send a message to the government which is now trying to see public opinions. There is not much ordinary people can do because they are not in the place in deciding class size or what kinds of resources each student can assess to. What can they do as an individual teacher? They should definitely try their best to put what they believe to be right into practice. Well, then, there will be another problem. What every teacher believe effective is all different… I mean, it all depends on each teacher. Say, in the first year students learn English with a conventional grammar-translation method, and the second year they do so in a completely different way! They might end up being all confused. I wonder what should be done.
>>124 Really? 0126実習生さん2009/01/06(火) 04:16:19ID:+BZagv0q>>118>>125 いや、頑張って書いたんだろうが、批判はしないが俺にも読めてしまうんだ、 そういう作文だと。読むより書くほうが難しいってのは知ってる。 俺はヒアリングなんてケッタイなもん出てくる前の世代の理系院卒です。 英語論文なら死ぬほど読みました。だからそういう教科書的英語なら 理系の俺でも斜め読みできるんだよ。(苦笑) ところがね〜、論文なら読めるんだが、小説になるとひっかかりまくり なんだよ。ボキャブラリの集合の大きさがまるでちがう。 0127実習生さん2009/01/06(火) 08:15:19ID:h4i/Fm3Y 一部は出来ても その他大勢が授業破綻して終わる 0128実習生さん2009/01/06(火) 22:24:27ID:o1cCgFVx 大学の英語の授業でも、先生がCDで英語流すと 眠り始める学生が多いよ。 それほど英語の音声は彼らにチンプンカンプン。 0129実習生さん2009/01/06(火) 22:30:19ID:axv8OBrD いかにも東大法卒の馬鹿官僚らしい考え方だ 0130実習生さん2009/01/07(水) 01:02:24ID:+7ZOIC++ だから文部科学省は解体しろっての 0131実習生さん2009/01/07(水) 09:00:08ID:0ITCrWTg>>126 Yeah, as I said, I am not that great but not so bad either. I can make myself understood alright. Actually I do not try so hard when I speak or write English because I say things which come to my mind and do not care so much about making mistakes. It is not a very good thing when you are a teacher who uses a grammar-translation method, is it? After settling my priority on communication, it does not seem (to me) very important to say everything “correctly” “naturally.” What is more important is to say more and explain in other words when a certain misunderstanding takes place, which is inevitable. 0132実習生さん2009/01/07(水) 09:12:18ID:0ITCrWTg>>126 I know what you mean. Sometimes it is easier to read (or listen to) academic paper than read novels or watch movies. The former usually deals with the topics which are familiar to you, whereas the latter covers a wide range of different things which they seem to talk about in everyday life. I started to read Sydney Sheldon’s books, where a lot of things happen all the time and you understand and actually enjoy the stories even if you do not know each word in them. When I was in school, I was told to read great literature from the U.S. or England. At that time I did not really enjoy reading those great writings, but when I switched to light novels, it suddenly seems all right. I can read them. 0133実習生さん2009/01/07(水) 09:27:55ID:kBD5xhQz 解体したらしたで、ひどいところはとことんひどくなりそう。 0134実習生さん2009/01/07(水) 09:28:59ID:0ITCrWTg>>127 You are very pessimistic. What makes you believe that? The guideline has not been implemented yet. Who knows? Maybe students learn more. >>128 I agree. When I try to listen to what does not make sense to me, I never fail to fall into a sleep. Probably teachers can give True or False questions before listening practices, which might help students get interested in what they are going to listen to. 0135◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/01/07(水) 12:23:08ID:Q0+BIHGg>>124 数学の論理とは、西欧語の論理に他ならないからです。 英語の否定(部分否定・全否定)で集合論を見るとよく分かりますね。
0140実習生さん2009/01/12(月) 15:39:45ID:NErbKKVe どうせ有名校で生徒たちが元気よく声を出してる様子が サンプルとして見せられるだけなんでしょ 0141実習生さん2009/01/12(月) 18:44:04ID:6Yd1pjhc>>139 How can we pass over students’ welfare? If they suffer more from the way they are taught, we shouldn’t introduce it or should make it better to suit their needs, should we? You sound pretty selfish and you know that, do you not? I agree with you for the latter part of what you said. It is extremely difficult to make any kinds of learning happen in the situation like what you mentioned. Those who made the guideline should show us how to do it in the least academic schools, not in SEL-high schools, which are rather exceptional. 0142実習生さん2009/01/17(土) 11:45:34ID:1Gph06q4 所詮官僚の発想なんだよね。 官僚は、自分が勉強でさほど苦労したことがなく受験勉強で良い成績を収め てきた人たちばかりだから、「俺にもできたんだからお前たち(国民全体) にもできるだろ」という馬鹿な考えしか持っていない。 「高校の授業を全て英語に」というのもその1つだ。
Studants might not be possible to understand all(sometimes any) about English courses. But, I think teaches shuld understand English grammer book in English(including grammar terminology) and teach what is in it to anyoune. 01521512009/01/29(木) 01:14:18ID:ZmD/9hTj Studants might not be possible to understand all(sometimes any) about English courses(in any highschool). But, I think teaches shuld understand English grammer book in English(including grammar terminology) and teach what is in it to everyone(or someone). 0153実習生さん2009/01/29(木) 20:35:11ID:POjSMOUI ... 0154実習生さん2009/01/29(木) 20:42:17ID:IZtozgtm>>151-152 よく分からない英語なんだけど、↓のような意味?
If all English classes are taught in English, the students might not possibly understand everything their teachers are trying to say. That is what I am afraid will happen.. I do not think teachers should use English in English classes but I strongly believe that not only should they know all the grammar rules including each grammatical terms but also they should be able to explain them to their students. 0155151-1522009/01/29(木) 21:38:00ID:ZmD/9hTj だいたい、その路線です。英文うまいですね。英検1級クラスか。当方準1。
>>151-152 >>what is in it は、contents ぐらいに思っておいたら(もう少し深いつもりだが)。
ただ、 >>everything their teachers are trying to say は、Some teachers cannot even try it. でもあります。 後半の believe と、all と、should be able to explain 上手ですね。 英語教師は、これくらい(少し下でもいいが)でなくては。 0156実習生さん2009/01/29(木) 22:13:16ID:IZtozgtm>>155 褒めていただいて恐縮です。内容は「文法や文法用語に精通し、それを生徒に 説明できるような教師が必要で、英語を『話す』必要はない」ということだったの ですね。俺としては、無理をしても、教師は「話す」べきだ、と思っているんですよ。 100%英語を使うこともないと思うんだけれど、「なるべく」英語を使って みせることで、手本を示す(英語という意味ではなく、その姿勢)べきだ、 と思うのです。 0157150, 151, and 155.2009/01/29(木) 23:07:45ID:ZmD/9hTj>>156 ほぼ 100% 同意します。 私「も」言いたいことを補完していていただいたこと、ありがとうございます。
さて、英語教師(ry) 01581572009/01/29(木) 23:11:29ID:ZmD/9hTj 訂正 >>教師は「話す」べきだ、 を 教師は「話す」ことができるべきだ、 に。 0159◆ynmayHQxXc 2009/01/29(木) 23:52:46ID:whj9OQ5P 。 0160実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 00:22:13ID:OZeTLPt/ There is a hypothesis that the ability to learn a language is innate. Some scientists believe that Japanese people have something special to understand Japanese. If it is true, at least for Japanese people,I don't think teaching English without using Japanese isn't a good way to master English. 0161実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 07:07:07ID:aPDN/Eb1>>160
Your sentences is logical expcept the word "isn't".
But I would like to ask you who made the hypothesis, if you know. If I know, I wold like to google it. I think the hypothesis should(or had been) denied. I heard that son(s)/daughter(s) of Mr. Namba, who had Novel award in physics in 2008 cannot speak Japanese.
I appreciate your responce. 0164実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 12:05:59ID:A42Z40tr どうせ無理だからすぐ止めるよ。 0165実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 18:53:09ID:QB6tuhir 今の時代と逆行してる。そうするならば大学の英語専門の学部でしろといいたい 0166実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 19:26:15ID:aPDN/Eb1>>160 ちょっとよく説明してみてください。>>163は「論理的」とコメントしていますが、 オレにはあまり論理がよく分からないので。
I also think the ability to learn any language when one is exposed to during their first two years is innate. Any baby can learn the language his or her parents speak when he or she gets just an ordinary care. The baby can actually do it without any problems. You say only Japanese people have some special ability to get to use the language. However, it is hardly persuasive because if that was the case, how could someone like Patrick Harlan have learned Japanese? There are a great number of people who are from other countries but speak Japanese quite well. 0167あ2009/01/30(金) 19:29:01ID:+35Yy8A2 すべてポルトガル語にしろよ 0168実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 22:37:18ID:ZSS+IaGK ポルトガル語でおk 0169実習生さん2009/01/30(金) 23:29:01ID:0b01KvdL Eu tambem penso a habilidade para aprender qualquer idioma quando a pessoa e exposto para durante os primeiros dois anos deles/delas e inato. Qualquer bebe pode aprender o idioma o dele ou os pais dela falam quando ele ou ela adquirirem ha pouco um cuidado ordinario. O bebe pode fazer isto de fato sem qualquer problema. Voce diz que so pessoas japonesas tem alguma habilidade especial para conseguir usar o idioma. Porem, e dificilmente persuasivo porque se isso o caso era, como alguem como Patrick Harlan pudesse ter aprendido japones? Ha um grande numero das pessoas que sao de outros paises mas falam bastante bem o japones. 0170実習生さん2009/01/31(土) 01:07:24ID:Z2z3NVta ちょっと遅レス(まだ1日以内)。 I said 160 is logical except there, but I have not said that 163 is logical.
This sentences below is what I would like to write in.
>>I also think the ability to learn any language when one is exposed to during their first >>two years is innate. I have understood that the word "innate" here, means a human (even at a pregnant, much before 2 years old), has been printed some features under the DNA phisycally that cut out(or, suitable) for understanding only a specific languge. I think that if anyone who was grown up two years after the birth without Japanese language environment (in the assumption that even the parents do not use Japanese) he/she would not be able to speak or understand Japanese as a first language. >>You say only Japanese people have some special ability to get to use the language. I don't think so. >>However, it is hardly persuasive because if that was the case, how could someone like >>Patrick Harlan have learned Japanese? There are a great number of people who are >>from other countries but speak Japanese quite well. Some positive discussion points here for what you said. Everyone who wants to understand any second language(including Japanese and English) make some(or great) effort learning it.
Finally, I doubt that how many teachers make enough effort understanding English. 01711702009/01/31(土) 01:10:11ID:Z2z3NVta 170 は、 >>166-169 に対してのコメントで、一般教師向けではないですね。 0172実習生さん2009/01/31(土) 15:00:18ID:nOfYE5mY 以前、スペシャル番組で、人間が(胎内にいた頃から、誕生後数か月までに) 接した言語にのみ、反応し、他の言語を聞かせても同じ反応を呼び起こすことが できなくなる、というような話をしていたように記憶している。 子音がいくつも連なるような言語もあるが、幼小のある時期、その言語に接しない と、ただ単にその音が聞こえなくなる、らしい。
>>それにひきかえ、外国語は、環境的に恵まれていない中で、 環境に「恵まれている」人も存在するのも事実です。 0174実習生さん2009/01/31(土) 17:10:10ID:Z2z3NVta>>169 上手い。日本語→ポルトガル語の直接翻訳サービスなんか使っていないですね。 でも、bebe が微妙(「bebe→drink→飲み込む」が明らか。あと1箇所不明瞭っぽい)。 0175実習生さん2009/01/31(土) 19:43:09ID:nOfYE5mY>>158 >>教師は「話す」べきだ、 を 教師は「話す」ことができるべきだ、 に。 So you think teachers who teach English cannot speak English? Actually most of them can speak English, if not perfectly natural English. The problem is not about the ability but the willingness to speak English. English teachers are too concerned about making mistakes. That is the main reason why they do not want to speak English in front of their students. As a speaker of English as a foreign language, we can never say good-bye to all the errors we make. Let’s get real. We have to live with them, I mean, the stupidest errors we make… I have noticed most of the teachers enjoy speaking with ALTs when the students are not around, which shows how they feel uncomfortable and somehow a kind of guilty to make errors in front of their students. The bottom line is they should change their attitude. They should know their students will make a model of them if they started to enjoy communicating in English with or without errors. 0176実習生さん2009/01/31(土) 23:47:13ID:Z2z3NVta>>175 Here some incomplete discussion(s), as I'm falling asleep.
>>So you think teachers who teach English cannot speak English? Some discusuions here. Someone say "Yes",others usually "No". >>Actually most of them can speak English, if not perfectly natural English. Any English teacher would not able to speak "natural" English, unless recognizing the word "recieved pronounciation".
>>I have noticed most of the teachers enjoy speaking with ALTs when the students are not around, Really? If so, teachers would be fortunate that they whold be. Some studantes will hear them at corridores or listen into....
>>176 つまり、一般論なんだよね。キミの意見はどの部分? 0178実習生さん2009/02/01(日) 15:00:52ID:9n/LqHi+>>177 「このスレは、英語でアヤを作ることにこそ意味がある、と思っている。と思うと、単なる荒らしか。」 という部分のみです。 0179実習生さん2009/02/01(日) 20:46:54ID:y5WORNjW>>178 You do not want to tell your own opinion, then? Are you saying you just want to use English for fun? If you ask me, it is not too much fun to hear something not so specific. I hope you will start taking a side. 0180実習生さん2009/02/01(日) 21:28:09ID:+fDozEyj 俺、大学でオールイングリッシュの英語授業受けたことあるけど。 言ってることあまりわからなかったし、それで英語力が向上したようには思えない。 日本語の高校の授業の方がわかりやすかったし、力になったと思う。 0181◆yk/JpL/Z9U 2009/02/02(月) 21:09:50ID:SxCnZnBB 昨日(日曜)の朝日新聞で、審議会専門委員の松本茂が言ってることでよく分かる。 要は、偏差値60以上の人間しか念頭にないということだ。パクパク英語だけの白痴は やはり考えることが違うわ。
All right. Let's be realistic. Probably no higher than a few percent? I mean thow who are willing to do their homework...
You say the divide (between haves adn have-nots) will widen but I don't think so because students withlow motivation do not learn no matter what. They are not learning anything from the way they are taught right now. 0192実習生さん2009/02/08(日) 21:39:28ID:nIomlkvD アメリカでは子供でも英語を話せるんだ。 日本でも何とかしろ。 0193実習生さん2009/02/08(日) 21:48:44ID:nvmlzulS 敗戦コンプレックスが、 めぐりめぐってとうとうこんな考えに行き着くのか。 日本は英語以外の自分達の言葉で近代化を成し遂げたんだから、 もっと自信持っていいだろ。 むしろ国力を付けて、日本と関わりたいなら アメリカ人に日本語を学ぶように仕向ける位になりたいものだ。 0194実習生さん2009/02/08(日) 21:56:34ID:H1EzBCPm>>193 I wish we could. Let's get real here again. Just look at some other Asian countries. They put in more time and energy to make their children have better English education. They see it as an international language to get more knowledge, better technology, and more money. We should do the same. 0195実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 00:39:26ID:62aSTYLu 英文で議論してるやつ何なの? 0196実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 00:57:38ID:jO6A3+SR>>194 英語優越主義者の方ね。
Get lost and go jump in the lake. 0197実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 01:22:30ID:M3pQWm3a>>194>>195 In between 194 and 195. >>英文で議論してるやつ何なの? Let's be realistic.
>>191 194 It would be taken for granted that studants be divided between haves adn have-nots, not only in English. It's normal. One discussion will be whether student be crammed into English or not, compulsory.
But I think teachers should not be. Teachers should compete with each other, and keep education quality/quantity above Japan society needs. (I concern that how much Japanese society needs English). 0198実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 01:27:26ID:jO6A3+SR>>197 You should be fascist in trying to roll out cultural imerialism. 0199実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 01:41:27ID:M3pQWm3a>>198 Possibly yes for me(not 100%)I should be trying to, but teachers' would be out of the business. 0200実習生さん2009/02/09(月) 01:41:59ID:hsqZ3krC 馬鹿高校生もいるのに英語だけの授業なんて破綻する。目に見えてるよ。いっそのこと英語必修を廃止して、 中学ぐらいから外国語1つ必修にかえろよ。 独、露、仏、伊、中、どれでもいいと思うが。 しかし管理教育で受験科目に使いたいから、英語にしてるだけ?だろ。 外国語の試験は大学の特定専門学科の試験だけでいいだろ。